"In light of the concerns raised, Democratic leaders should be calling in a responsible way for at the very least a press conference by Biden’s DHS to address concerns and assure voters that the election was secure. Instead, we have heard nothing from them."
I agree. I want to hear the professionals at our top law enforcement and intelligence agencies publicly affirm that this election was not in any way compromised. Now why is that such a big ask? Any semiconscious humanoid knows for absolute certain that had the election gone the other way we'd be drowning in 24/7 wall to wall demands of recounts and validations.
I think for the sake of life on Earth, it's worth a double check. Just to be sure..
I agree Dean. There were over 60 bomb scares on November 5th in predominantly Democrat and Democrat leaning districts. What happened at those polling sites that had to be cleared or closed? What is wrong with asking for an audit at a random district in each of the swing states. Why aren't the governors and/or secretaries of state in swing states saying publicly that no fraud took place?
States already do that or some form of it with other steps to verify the election results for certification. Ex: NC randomly selects precincts in every county for hand counts in one step. You can look up each state to get an idea of their process.
All counties, except some in TX and LA have paper trails or ballot receipts to verify electronic voting. Electronic voting is available to 2% of voters in the country if every person where it is available used it. I don’t think TX or LA changed the result.
Why do we *assume* there are no checks and balances in place — when we lose an election? No one ever says “My guy or gal got too many votes.” Rudy would go to court with questions & requests. He would literally tell the judge when cornered “We have no evidence of fraud, and we are not suggesting that fraud occurred.”
I think magaworld got what it wanted, they broke election trust. Answers are never enough. MGT did it to GA and Dems won Senate seats when her folks stayed home. More people will stay home because now Dems are saying your vote doesn’t count — with no evidence. There are things we could focus on to win the next election when the orange menace will have a vulnerable Congress. Nope, we’re going to wallow in ‘what if’.
I would like to know what the voters have to say about what they did or didn't do. We need reliable surveys to tell us whether, in fact, 93 million people didn't vote and if so, why. We also need to know from voters how they voted and why. I know this is a daunting and perhaps impossible task, but if we have the information we can tell what really happened.
I agree with you, Dean, that we need fighters. I do not understand why Democrats let Republicans steamroll over them. They are letting down their party and the country by making themselves doormats. Haven't we learned anything from the Al Gore debacle in 2000, which BTW has paved the way for all the misery we've experienced since then? Enough. We need more Bernies.
Oh? Where were you in 2016 when the Bernie Bros sat it out or voted for Jill Stein.....the same Jill Stein who was playing footsie in 2016 and is still playing footsie now. No thank you. Bernie has done enough. Democrats are not making themselves "doormats." That's the MAGA party or have you missed who is being nominated to "run" this country. Once again, the felon did not achieve 50% of the popular vote, once again third party candidates, or the backers of failed third party candidates, either got enough votes to influence the vote in a swing state or sat it out pouting, because it was a woman at the top of the ticket - ah misogyny, the United States' most influential party - and here we are. I don't understand why some people insist that it's always the Democrats who need to reform. Really? The Republican party, which has been slow walking to Fascism for the last, God knows how many years, is the one that needs to reform. Bringing up the Gore debacle is telling - why don't you suggest we "reform" the Supreme Court? That seems to be where more than one of our problems lie. Again, look to the MAGA party for trying to destroy our government. And the Democrats, as usual, having to put out the fire and be the true fighters.
What makes you think Sanders supporters voted for Jill Stein (who is my neighbor, and who is a magical thinker, and who is now at least twice a vanity candidate for president, and whose family is mad at her in a big way for having run again after she threw what should have been Hillary Clinton's victory to Trump)! Because of Stein, Trump put three justices on the Court; we got Dobbs, and thousands, maybe tens of thousands of women are dead or grievously harmed from lack of reproductive care.
I was an avid supporter of Sanders, but once he was out of the running, I worked to convince Democratic voters to vote for Clinton.
I haven't seen Stein since before the election, but I just may blow up at her if/when I do.
I too supported Sanders, but when he lost I supported Clinton. Third-party candidates are spoilers. They can't possibly believe they can win so they have to be running either to throw off the vote or because they harbor delusions of grandeur.
Too bad Kennedy didn't continue his third party presidential campaign. I know he offered to support Biden if he'd get a cabinet post in his next administration. Biden refused, so he joined the Trump campaign.
RFKjr. should not get a cabinet post. He doesn't have the requisite knowledge and he's a conspiracy theorist. His views on vaccines, if taken seriously, will result in a lot of people dying. He'll undoubtedly make a mockery of whatever Trump gives him.
OH, I don't know, maybe having spent a lot of time working with the Clinton campaign and dealing with an awful lot of alleged Democrats who spent an inordinate amount of time sabotaging the party after she was denied the election with the "if only Bernie....." First of all, Bernie is not a Democrat never has been because it he were he would have been primaried in his home state and every time he ran in a primary and against a woman? He lost. So better to be an Independent and avoid that unpleasantness.
As for my comment about the Bros? This is just one of many polls on how they voted and it's from the Guardian. They didn't have a dog in the hunt.
Eighty-five percent of Bernie Sanders supporters said they intended to vote for Hillary Clinton in the general election, according to a survey released last week by Pew Research Center.
Another 9% said they intended to vote for Donald Trump (a trend the Guardian noticed among its readers) and 6% said they either aren’t sure who they will vote for or will choose another candidate in November.
But further questions in the survey suggest that former Sanders supporters are not necessarily happy with the choices they are left with. When asked whether the presumptive Republican nominee or Clinton was the more honest and truthful candidate, only 47% chose Clinton; 16% chose Trump, and 35% said “neither” candidate could be described with those adjectives.
Supporters for Democratic presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt. cheer before a rally in Portsmouth, N.H., Tuesday, July 12, 2016, prior to the arrival of Clinton and Sanders. Sanders is poised to offer his long-awaited endorsement of Clinton, hoping to transfer the energy of his supporters into the party’s fight against Republican Donald Trump. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik)
Bernie Sanders supporters: who will you vote for in November?
Read more
People were even more pessimistic when asked who would reduce the influence of special interests in politics. Of the former Sanders backers whom Pew spoke to, only 46% believed Clinton would reduce these interests, 27% believed Trump would and 23% said neither candidate would make US politics less vulnerable to lobbyists. The results further emphasize how this election has left many voters having to hold their nose between two unpopular options.
It is important to remember that the way this survey was conducted may have influenced these findings. Pew interviewed 2,245 US adults living in all 50 states by telephone from 15 to 26 June. The fact that individuals were asked to state their preferences to a stranger over the phone might have meant that some were reluctant to disclose their intentions openly (in particular, former Sanders supports who plan on switching to Trump).
In '16, the DNC tried to install HRC, but it backfired and put Trump in. A lot of Trump voters would have nothing to do with her, but would have chosen Bernie and we would have never had Trump....
Garbage. Oh, wait .......misogyny! Right. She won the popular vote. A lot of the felon's voters are a product of the Fox entertainment corp. What you're saying is you wouldn't vote for a woman. Sit this year out did you?
Believe as you wish Carol-Ann. Oh, btw, I own a non-gender related small business and over 80% of my employees are women, including the one in charge..
Not beating up on you just questioning your defending the indefensible. Perhaps, just perhaps it's time to reassess what a "fighter" is. That's all I'm saying. I am so sick and tired of people accusing Democrats of being wimps. Beating up on you? Let's just say anyone who still backs the man who gave the election to the felon the first time around because he wouldn't rally his own backers is almost as good as voting for Jill Stein. Almost.
If you will remember, Hillary won that election. If it hadn't been for the obscene electoral college she would have been president. I don't see how Bernie had anything to do with that. He is one of the few principled politicians we have. His message has been consistent for decades. He is almost the only one pushing for Medicare for all. He is against sending offensive weapons to Israel. He is staunchly pro-worker. If we didn't have him we'd be in worse trouble, IMO. Obviously I'm not going to convince you of that but I hope we can listen to each other respectfully instead of making accusations. We're on the same side.
I wish I could like your comment at least 50 times! Sanders IS a truly principled politician, with excellent views on how to make this a better country for all of us. I wish he were young enough to run in '28, and a few more times after that if need be. Had he been our candidate in '16, he would have beaten Trump both in the popular vote and in the electoral college. A lot of Trump voters who liked Trump's then weak populism would have voted for Sanders against Trump.
Interesting points. I thought he was too old already in 2016, but given what we've been dealing with, that was obviously an error. I did like Hillary, but if Bernie had been the candidate, I would have voted for him. He has always been rather difficult for me to figure out, and I am not sure how he'd do when tact was needed. I don't really know him, just what I've seen him say to reporters. There's probably more to him than I know. I definitely agree that he has really good ideas, and that he is not afraid to pursue what he believes in.
I remember all too well, all too well. There are lots of principalled politicians who actually get things done. Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio comes to mind. You don't need to remind me of the 83 year old's track record, this is just from the presentCongress:
Got bipartisan cosponsors on the 2nd fewest bills compared to All Senators. 1 of Sanders’s 36 bills and resolutions had a cosponsor from a different political party than the party Sanders caucused with in the 117th Congress.
Got their bills out of committee the 4th least often compared to Serving 10+ Years (tied with 3 others) Sanders introduced 4 bills in the 117th Congress that got past committee and to the floor for consideration.
Was 9th most absent in votes compared to All Senators
Sanders missed 9.4% of votes (89 of 949 votes) in the 117th Congress
Ranked the 10th bottom/follower compared to Serving 10+ Years
A higher score shows a greater ability to get cosponsors on bills.
Introduced the 26th fewest bills compared to All Senators (tied with 1 other) Sanders introduced 36 bills and resolutions in the 117th Congress.
Sanders introduced 0 bills that became law, including via incorporation into other measures, in the 117th Congress.
Powerful Cosponsors
2 of Sanders’s bills and resolutions in the 117th Congress had a cosponsor who was a chair or ranking member of a committee that the bill was referred to. Compare to all Serving 10+ Years (8th percentile); All Senators (13th percentile).
If the Senate were a debating society, he'd be a star. It's not. It's supposed to be the engine that makes the country go. But then this Congress was one of the least productive in the history of the country.
If you want corporate Democrats like Schumer and Manchin (gone, but the damage isn't forgotten) to call the shots because they're "effective," then IMO we're all finished. If you want someone who's nationally known and stands up for the little person, you might take another look at Bernie. Just because he hasn't succeeded doesn't mean he hasn't gotten through to people. He's fighting an uphill battle in this country, one that many other countries won long ago. The US is way behind Europe on the social safety net, for example, the reason being none other than the greed and corruption of corporate-backed Democrats and Republicans.
blaming people who supported Bernie and accusing us of voting for Jill Stein is fake news. I heard that old story, back in the day, and it pisses me off as much now as it did back then… It’s untrue. It just goes to show how anyone can be manipulated by the corporate machine.
What? Unlike 2016, this time all the polling companies had VP Harris winning and the felon and the anti-Christ Johnson smirking and talking about their "little secret." Maybe every thing wasn't as copacetic as it should have been. "Bullet ballots." Really? And only in swing states? Huh.
Yes. Read the Substack on the subject by Stephen Spoonamore. Very interesting. Basically what he says is that there are always bullet ballots, but they usually total <1%. I don't remember the percentages in the swing states, but they were way out of line with the usual numbers. The piece i'm talking about may be on Threads, addressed to @billt801
I just pulled this from another site. My question is, why didn't alarm bells start ringing like crazy or did people just believe this was a one off and not have a real impact?
"Trump’s percentage of bullet ballots totaled 7.2%. In Nevada, 5.5%. In comparison, bullet ballots for Trump in Oregon, Utah and Idaho—the three states which border Arizona and Nevada, with equally fervent Trump voters—count for less than 0.05% in each state."
And in North Carolina bullet ballots are rumored to be upwards of 10-11%....and the window to call for an audit or recount in North Carolina is past. This is such a dropping of the ball on an epic level. They need to do something instead of just roll over and give up
It’s meaningless. Quite a few states prioritize getting the presidential vote tallied first so they can meet state, Congressional and Constitutional deadline. Those deadlines don’t apply to lower ballot candidates. All the votes get counted. The “bullet ballots” are neither new nor a huge number in the final counts.
Yes, reporters have gone back and compared prior elections.
You realize Johnson has 0 to do with election results until it comes to the House?
Did you notice the wide margin of error in the polling? You missed polling that fluctuated or didn’t show her winning? Have you researched any of that stuff like Bullet Ballots? Or state processes to verify vote totals & ballots?
Daily Kos, Nov. 17, 2024 - explained how common “bullet ballots” are and why by looking at previous elections.
“… in quite a number of states, the cumulative votes for the Senate (and in a couple of places for Governor) have been running far behind those recorded for President — but this is perfectly natural since there is a constitutional deadline that the Presidential vote must be finalized before the Electoral College meets in December that Senators and Governors don’t have to meet.“
Did answering this question put the matter to rest? Hell, no. A simple answer like some states prioritize certain tallies because of a Constitutional deadline does not change the result.
And so it would be with any hand count or other responses.
So you assign an impossible task and say completing that task is how we can tell what really happened? Exit polling is available. It is NOT 100% reliable but probably more reliable than pre-election polling. That’s because you cannot make people tell you who they voted for so you have to take whoever will tell you.
I guess you figure Marc Elias with the army of attorneys the Dems assembled were picking their collective noses instead of doing their jobs. That the Dems and Kamala would sit on it if they knew there was something wrong? A lot of states haven’t finished verifying their vote tallies but of course like the last elections voters for the losing candidate question the results.
I love Bernie but this has 0 to do with Bernie. This has to do with not knowing how the states verify votes and *assuming* the books are cooked. Exactly what magaworld did in 2020 for the same reason: their candidate lost.
Overall I see this as another win for magaworld. Nothing our adversaries would like more than a complete breakdown of trust in the core of our democracy: voting.
Why is everyone beating up on me? I am not assigning anything to anyone. I don't have the power to do that. I am just saying that I have seen nothing that proves to my satisfaction what happened in this election. We worked our asses off for Harris and Walz. I still can't figure out why they lost. Do *you* know? That is all I'm saying. I know everyone is on edge but for heaven's sake, let's at least be cordial to each other.
Uh, responding to what you actually said is not ‘beating up on you.’ For instance this which indicates we don’t know what happened & never will unless an impossible task is completed. - “We need reliable surveys to tell us whether, in fact, 93 million people didn't vote and if so, why. We also need to know from voters how they voted and why. I know this is a daunting and perhaps impossible task, but if we have the information we can tell what really happened.“
It’s one thing to be disappointed. It’s another to not understand why it happened. That goes a step further. Plus, “letting down” the party & country; being “door mats”.
I do have observations about why the campaign narrowly lost. It’s a few things.
• Post-pandemic leaders have been losing elections across the globe. Voters are tired. They don’t feel heard & their wallets are hurting. They want change.
• The Dems are getting better but not breaking the disinformation fog which is aided by Fox, the tweet machine, social media algorithms & the GOP rallies around 1 msg.
• Most Americans read on an elementary school level (54% below 6th grade.)
• Most Americans are not political & know little about how gov’t or tariffs work. They don’t know how elections work or that observers from each party are present etc.
• We have allowed the idea of a king president to take root. No matter what, the president & the administration get the blame. The GOP pounded on her being VP.
• It’s been well know across the country people are concerned about rent, food, gas — getting by day to day. And crime which is generally lower but the fog machine always says the opposite. That means every crime (or high homicide rate like where I live) reinforces the lie that Dems = high crime.
• People who have more stable day-to-day lives are able focus on a bigger picture; college grads don’t read at elementary school levels & seek out info beyond the fog machine. Harris/Walz won college grads & voters with $100K+ incomes.
According to Maslow, most people move up the pyramid 1 level at a time as levels of need are achieved. We need to meet voters where they say they are.
The orange menace used basic needs & safety and security. He tied his forever bogeyman, immigration, to them. “They” (Dems and immigrants) are criminals. “They” take your tax dollars; “They” cause high prices; “They” make you unsafe.
You may very well be right about voter sentiment, but why did 93 million people not vote? In 2020, more people did. It's possible that people were just cynical and didn't believe either candidate, but we don't know.
I know this, that is not registered voters who didn’t vote. It is some sort of estimate. Eligible voters grow a little each year with the age of the population. US News has a similar report saying almost 90M did not vote. They indicate it is an estimate of all voting eligible adults — NOT registered voters. 90M registered voters would be a horrific anomaly.
64%, 155M did. They have a table comparing it to previous elections. Looks like about a 2% difference.
“This figure is based on the voting-eligible population – not registered voters – in the United States, which the Election Lab defines as “the voting-age population (those 18 years or older in the U.S.) minus ineligible noncitizens and felons.”
Exit polls are "adjusted"! The organizations conducting the polls adjust them by using the vote results. If the final votes are tampered with, the adjusted exit polls become just as unreliable at the final votes. Here's a quote from CNN on exit polls: "Even so, exit polls are still polls, with margins for error – which means they’re most useful when treated as estimates, rather than precise measurements. That’s particularly true for the earliest exit poll numbers, which won’t yet have been adjusted to match the final election results."
interested. I was thinking more accurate in the sense of talking to people who actually voted versus what voters saying what they would do. So to compensate for not getting answers they adjust the numbers to match the result. Very weird. But the purpose isn’t to confirm the results.
At any rate, I don’t think the election was messed with. There’s 0 evidence. People refuse to look up the processes or educate themselves on it.
I think no matter how many answers people get they will not be satisfied because the result will not change. So we will have this now every friggin’ election where whoever doesn’t win says it was rigged. “Just asking questions” which is what conspiracy theorists do to plant doubt.
Xi and Putin are laughing. Their favorite line is that democracies are too messy, inefficient etc. Maga is laughing because now we are saying the stuff they said & they keep denying democracy is a pillar of our system. Mike Johnson described it was 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what’s for dinner “you don’t want that.” He laughed when people were upset about the ‘little secret.’ So I guess he’s happy too.
My political innocence about elections ended with the 2000 election contest between Bush and Gore. The infamous Brooks Brothers Riot that interfered with the Miami-Dade hand recount should make us skeptical about all presidential elections. This is especially true today when three members of George Bush's 2000 election legal team, Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justices Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, are on the Supreme Court. They have aided and abetted Trump's ascension by overturning the Colorado Supreme Court's decision to strike Trump from Colorado's presidential ballot and by conferring immunity on convicted felon Trump. My election skepticism increased with the 2004 contest between Bush and John Kerry. I was canvassing for Kerry in Las Vegas on election night 2004. One of our team members had an insider connection in the DNC who told us Kerry was winning. We were shocked to learn about an hour later that Bush had flipped Ohio. It was the same feeling of shock and disbelief that many of us felt on November 6th this year. Kerry conceded immediately in 2004. But a deposition of Bush's IT expert, Michael Connell, during an investigation several years later revealed that Ohio's vote count was transferred to a partisan Republican server site in Tennessee. The sudden reversal of the vote from Kerry to Bush happened after that transfer. Connell died a month and a half after giving this deposition in a suspicious small plane crash. Stephen Spoonamore, a computer hacking expert, claimed--and provided his expert opinion--that the 2004 election was hacked. He has claimed the same for the 2024 election. The real question is not why voters are skeptical, rather we need to ask why are Democratic candidates NOT skeptical? Why do they refuse to verify election results before it is too late? Here is a link to an article about the 2004 election: https://truthout.org/articles/new-court-filing-reveals-how-the-2004-ohio-presidential-election-was-hacked/
Spoonamore has done a terrific - or maybe we will find it to be “horrific” - job of stirring up doubts. He alleges the potential for election fraud. You’re throwing spaghetti at the wall that conflates election interference.
I’m done looking at what he says or anything based on it. Definitely not going back 20 yrs to his theories. They strangely are always about things that he says ‘could’ happen. Never addresses what did happen & mostly ignores the safeguards in place or how wide a conspiracy would have to be to skirt the processes in place.
At least 2 of his three 2024 allegations don’t pass muster. The 3rd, is just on the face of it very unlikely especially across multiple states. He doesn’t hold enough credibility with me to get a free pass on the 3rd. There are more knowledgeable people who are not jumping on his bandwagon.
I see this as a death spiral for elections; a gift to those who don’t want democracy as a key pillar of our government system. Make it your life’s work. Everyone is entitled.
Actually, Michael Connell testified--before he mysteriously died--that the steal did happen when votes were sent to the Republican server on election night in 2004. The speed and timing--late at night--of the Ohio vote flip from Kerry to Bush was beyond belief. And we know the Republicans on the Supreme Court stopped the electoral vote count in 2000 and made Bush president. The 2000 election Brooks Brothers Riot in Miami Dade helped to stop the recount. Out of town Republican operatives, including Roger Stone, stormed the government building where the recount was being conducted. Vote counts done after Bush was made president showed Al Gore had won. Then there was Trump's conviction of election interference for a porn star payment to try to influence the 2016 election. And the fake electors and Capitol riot in the 2020 election. What about all this tells you we should just trust that Trump did not do anything to steal the 2024 election? What about this History tells you we should just trust the election results and not try to verify results? A hand count and computer audit would go a long way to give voters peace of mind. Unlike Republicans, Democrats would accept the results of a thorough audit and hand count. Yes, we are entitled to free and fair elections AND the right to verify the results.
Polling is not reliable. Exit polls are "adjusted"! The organizations conducting the polls adjust them by using the vote results. If the final votes are tampered with, the adjusted exit polls become just as unreliable at the final votes. Here's a quote from CNN on exit polls: "Even so, exit polls are still polls, with margins for error – which means they’re most useful when treated as estimates, rather than precise measurements. That’s particularly true for the earliest exit poll numbers, which won’t yet have been adjusted to match the final election results."
Democrats have not been real fighters since the days of FDR. Dams always prefer to bring a policy book to a gunfight. They don't want to upset anybody and they don't want to appear overly political. It's about time to shed that mentality. Republicans have taken over the country and are planning to destroy the government. Unless Democrats learn how to fight, we are going to lose this constitutional republic forever. Let's grow a spine and get an attitude. Bipartisanship and collegiality are no longer going to work with those Republican vulgarians. We need to stop allowing Republicans to run roughshod over the law, the Constitution, our institutions, and our nation. Quit playing nice with these Republican jackals, Dems.
I very much agree with the article. If 50 % of the voters have questions; those questions should have answers based on data and facts. If there have been electronic irregularities in the counts, that needs to be looked into to assure new methods of fraud are not being used. If not dealt with, they will just be perfected for future elections.
At about 10;30 on election night, I saidto myself, “Something is wrong.“ I went to bed and woke up in the middle of the night to learn that I was right
Maybe Georgia had the right of it, and we didn't realize it. Hand count. We need to know what was on the original ballot and what came out the other side. There is no need to know who was elected on election night. We need to know that the ballots were factual. I am, in no way, saying it's the fault of the manufacturers of the machines, I am saying, given the news the came out about Russia's interference reported about 2 weeks before the election, we need a hand recount. Funny, no one is saying this was the most secure election in modern times they way they were in the 2000 election. Just an observation.
There are lots of hackers out there who have sophisticated ways of hacking voting machines, although I have been told that because of how our system is set up, that would be very difficult. But then there is also the issue of the huge numbers of bullet ballots that appeared in swing states. That is something that should be looked into, for certain.
We will recall than musk offered a million dollars a day in a voters sweepstakes if they would register using their names and street addresses. Bullet ballots, anyone?
Maybe 50% or more of Dems have no idea of the processes already in place to catch these things. For sure very very few have looked up state processes or searched for these “theories” being batted around or they’d find they’ve been batted down.
Now I realize no one will accept Dominion as a ‘reliable source’. Unknown random assertions and doubts are more lovable. But it is a place to start to see in general how it states do it and what to search for regarding any specific state.
There is no evidence, so why do we have all these questions? Because our candidate lost. No one anywhere ever said “Our guy / gal got too many votes.” Now that maga & helpers succeeded in sowing distrust in elections, we’ll have this every effing election.
It's beyond appalling when billions and billions of dollars have been foolishly spent on fucking nothing ..nothing ..not for food ...not for homeless ...not for kids living in poverty who will be lucky to eat a turkey or even think about buying Christmas anything .. instead we all stand divided between a stolen ..uncounted ..Election and absolutely nothing . Our voices unheard ...our votes obviously not even fairly counted ..
Nice try on getting recounts. Instead, we need to put massive efforts toward getting rid of the Electoral College and then every person's vote WILL stand for something.
There is not a chance in hell we will get rid of the electoral college now. Republicans have taken over the government, and we are not going to get it back. It's too late now. Americans gave our country away to the barbarians.
It wasn't just "economic populism" that got people to vote for Trump. Because just saying he would lower the cost of groceries and rents is not a policy. What got people to vote for Trump is playing up to their prejudices and biases and putting Democrats on the defensive.
I am utterly stunned this is not being screamed from every Democratic representative and constituent! These are computer experts with very compelling arguments and an election result with some extremely specific odd outcomes, as remarked upon in the letter. WTAH!?! Don’t just roll over, VP Harris, you’re made of stronger stuff than that! We the people demand our votes be counted accurately! 🤬🤬🤬
This isn’t about Spoonamore, dear. He wasn’t the only expert on the letter. Computer experts warned the FBI and DOJ in 2020 to beware for 2024, too. What exactly are your computer science qualifications? Shortly before the election Trump himself told his little MAGAts they didn’t have to vote because he was gonna win anyway and oops he wasn’t supposed to say that. Rachel Maddow reported that little tidbit. He tells on himself ALL THE TIME. He certainly has all the money and technology in the world necessary to hack the election, with Russia, North Korea, China, and Israel happy to assist - who’d I miss? There are too many dots connecting for this to all be just a damn coincidence that he won just enough in every swing state to not trigger an automatic recount, even when the margin was so close on the popular vote. Never mind, dear. You do you, and step aside when you roll over and play dead.
People could look up processes for states that concern them. Instead we’re going to do what magaland did in 2020 & our adversaries are glad of it. Including maga because now there is widespread distrust of the pillar of democracy. They planted it. Dems are feeding it for them. Anti-democracy movement grows. There’s no evidence. Even 2000 Mules had fake evidence.
Not very compelling arguments if you know how votes are verified. Hand counts are done randomly in many states. NC for example - which is a big focus - hand counts random precincts in every county. No one’s mind will be changed until the results change. IOW, never.
Bullet ballots are not a new thing and not weird. There always appear to be a large number until all the votes are counted because quite a few states prioritize the presidential count. That is to be sure they meet the Constitutional deadlines & certification deadlines set by Congress. Not that a simple sane reason seems to change anyone’s mind because the results of the presidential race won’t change.
To believe the rumors & theories you have to also believe Harris doesn’t want to be president. Marc Elias and the rest of the Dem’s army of election attorneys took the election off.
Well, honestly, seems like they did take this election off, from my point of view. I see lots of points in your multiple posts regarding this is what MAGA wanted, Dems to not trust elections. At least the GOP made up stuff in 2020, like the BS 2000 Mules stuff, but I do not see you commenting on the stuff Musk was doing. He was paying people who registered to sign a petition. He was offering 1 million dollars a day to some "lucky" person who registered and signed his petition. And when someone, not Elias, brought charges, in court his team fell back on, well, it was just a scam???? And got away with it. There's your evidence right there. There's your reason to distrust the results, right there. I'm shocked at how little came of all of this. I mean, if that stuff is allowed and we don't see that as cheating to win an election, why don't the Dems have a $5 registration to vote drive every single election? Why doesn't George Soros do a daily $10,000 give away after you register by proving you voted? There's plenty of reasons for there to be recounts in every swing state. The fact the margins of victory were just over the amount needed for official recounts is enough. And after 8 years of constant election denial crap from the GOP and our system placating them to make them feel better, the very least we deserve is the exact same treatment. Not that it matters, i guess, cause those who think we still have an actual democracy are kidding themselves. In an actual democracy, the rule of law matters and is respected by everyone, not just the dems. In an actual democracy, the person who tried to over throw it just under 4 years ago goes to prison, not to mention isn't allowed to run for office again. Evidence? It's all around us. We are floating in evidence. No one has the balls to step up and do something about it. That's why the wife and I are working on our visas. Why fight for more complacency and corruption? Ridiculous.
You are talking about potential election interference, not election fraud. They are 2 different things. It is true I mostly address the fraud fears - mostly the ones brought to us by “scientists” (a tech guy).
Perhaps you didn’t follow the Musk court case closely. Turns out the winner was not a ‘lucky’ person but carefully screened to be a spokesperson. So it was not a direct chance for a million if you register. Therefore, different legal tactic. One thing the GOP & pals do is pull stuff like that close enough to elections that time runs out to push back with court case appeals.
As I remember it was pretty close to the election and we heard no more about winners. Maybe too late for them to be very effective. Your solution is to be like the fascists. That won’t work either. “See they’re all alike.” With a choice between the original and a lite version, voters choose the original.
Regardless PA was important, but 1 of 5-7 swing states. The only state with a giveaway scheme. We lost them all. Most if not all by more than the narrow margins where Biden won. Dems never said in 2020 “Oh, it’s too close” in those states. “Our guy got too many votes.” No one ever does.
So run for cover because there is worse news. By your definition we’ll probably never be a ‘real’ democracy. Eugene V Debs ran from prison. Being conviction-free isn’t in the Constitution. Probably to prevent political prosecutions. The GOP in the Senate failed to impeach by a few votes the 2nd time. Too many voters failed to see the danger ahead.
The Dems have not broken through the disinformation fog. They were close but unable to break from a precedent set in history: If the administration has low approval ratings, they drag down a candidate, especially if the candidate is the VP or seated President. What people saw & lived everyday were confirmed by the orange menace. That’s what they cared about. Dems are still denying it.
Have you read the letter sent by the computer security professionals? Look it up - I would enclose it here if I could. It has very specific details that they’re concerned about. It’s not just screaming “election fraud” in the wind like the MAGAts do. It absolutely is not the same BS. Fear of appearing the same as them when we have concrete evidence is anathema to our cause. Dems need to fight fire with fire instead of rolling over.
A. I’m not open to more “look it up.” I do my research before I have an opinion. These things can multiply faster than rabbits. I’m staying out of rabbit holes. My life & my community have more important things to be done.
B. 2000 Mules had “evidence” “data experts”. It was all based on “data” and it was BS. Some BS is more sophisticated but that doesn’t make it more valuable.
C. I’ve already slogged through some of the junk put out by “experts”. Spoonamore for instance has 3 major points regarding votes. 2 are pure bunk. For instance, the ‘bullet ballot’ thing is baloney. It doesn’t take a “security” or “tech” expert to find the flaws. The 3rd is obscure and relies on assumptions. I know the definition of *assume*. He breezes right past checks & balances; hand counts that states do; their security measures and so on. Not very scientific. Plus if you are wrong 2x, the 3rd is suspect.
If you don’t like 1, 2, or 3, he has some other “look over here” stuff. Standard fair for election denial and misdirection.
In trying to get the spelling of his name correct, I ran across a big Snopes entry. I guess he’s made the big time. Maybe he’ll do fundraising. Notice when faced with the fact (yes, fact) that his numbers don’t work, he said his ‘duty to warn’ was not perfect. But he stands by it. (His credentials also don’t meet the level of his allegations.)
Anybody can be an expert. I’m an expert at putting pieces together to get the big picture & separating online and in person wheat from chaff. It was a big part of my job, education & training. People depended on my accuracy & judgement.
I'm really glad to hear that someone is suggesting hand recounts in swing states. What I would really like to see investigated is the outsize numbers of bullet ballots in states like PA. Information I got from one of the discussions I participate in, was that the number of bullet ballots in those states is very much higher than the normal 1% or less. I couldn't agree more that we need fighters to lead the democratic party. I find myself wondering if the candidates think that fighting is the same as playing dirty like the repubs do. I'm tired of seeing our "leaders" roll over an play dead in the face of the republicans' dirty tricks.
I’m also sick of Dems trying to “take the high road” when Republicans are laying land mines all along it! Dems don’t seem to notice that polite deference is out of style.
That doesn’t mean they need to fabricate lies. There is plenty they could say about the lies Republicans spread, but they do a really poor job of calling out the obvious in a big way.
For instance, they could have clarified that the ACA is Obama Care; that no states allow babies to be killed after they’re born (“after-birth abortion”); that Bidenomics really IS working; that Biden’s infrastructure bill IS creating high-paying jobs and that there is good reason for separation of church and state, as well as for independent news media. They could also have enumerated what and where the infrastructure bill is having effects.
Dems allow themselves to get caught in the weeds. When it comes to LGBTQ+ rights, they got hung up on pronouns and bathrooms instead of pointing out that LGBTQ+ are, in total, only about 7% of the entire adult population and trans adults are only about 1%. So, while they certainly deserve equal rights and protections, they can hardly represent a dominant presence anywhere, except TV. Additionally, violent crime is down under Dems and usually escalates under Republicans. It was up under Trump. And most sexual assaults are committed by heterosexual men, not LGBTQ+ people. Where is the fear and outrage for heterosexual men? Or clergy, for that matter? Likewise, most crimes, violent or not, are committed by Americans, not by immigrants.
Dems could counter Republican lies, but seem to be unaware they need to do so or incapable of doing so effectively. Or maybe they’re afraid it wouldn’t be ‘nice’.
Even Jesus Christ lost his temper with liars and thieves. He called them out again and again, even overturning the tables in the ‘temples’ where religious leaders were selling the privilege to worship. Sound familiar. Elon paying people for their votes with his $1,000 daily lottery! Just to name the obvious.
Well said! I think one of the problems might be that the republicans would immediately turn the tables and accuse the dems of something that is not true, but that people would, for some unfathomable reason, listen to and believe. That's how upside down they've turned this country/
As I revealed in several comments, my wife’s approved mail-in ballot was “Returned Undeliverable,” even though mine arrived at the same address with both names on our mailbox. Difference is that she is female and has a Spanish name. A local Phila. journal published an article listing 4000 names of people denied a vote in Phila, mostly Latino, Muslim, African & female. My wife went to City Hall w/ her documents and voted there, but msny likely did not know what to do or would not miss work to do so. The 174 Page list is at the end of the article, as follows: <https://billypenn.com/2024/10/26/cure-mail-ballot-philadelphia-election/?mc_cid=62d21529b1> Further research may not reveal enough votes lost or switched to GOP based on voter info to change the outcomes, but the public needs to know, either to reassure the integrity of this election or to protect future elections. It seems odd that Harris’ 73 million votes is 8 million fewer than Biden got in 2020, 15 million registered Democrats failed to vote, and that Trump got votes from 48% of Latinos & 45% of women. Just a thought.
"In light of the concerns raised, Democratic leaders should be calling in a responsible way for at the very least a press conference by Biden’s DHS to address concerns and assure voters that the election was secure. Instead, we have heard nothing from them."
I agree. I want to hear the professionals at our top law enforcement and intelligence agencies publicly affirm that this election was not in any way compromised. Now why is that such a big ask? Any semiconscious humanoid knows for absolute certain that had the election gone the other way we'd be drowning in 24/7 wall to wall demands of recounts and validations.
I think for the sake of life on Earth, it's worth a double check. Just to be sure..
yep!!!
The election results were compromised. You’re right. Answers are never enough. Nothing ever happens. Why won’t our guardrails guard?!
I agree Dean. There were over 60 bomb scares on November 5th in predominantly Democrat and Democrat leaning districts. What happened at those polling sites that had to be cleared or closed? What is wrong with asking for an audit at a random district in each of the swing states. Why aren't the governors and/or secretaries of state in swing states saying publicly that no fraud took place?
States already do that or some form of it with other steps to verify the election results for certification. Ex: NC randomly selects precincts in every county for hand counts in one step. You can look up each state to get an idea of their process.
All counties, except some in TX and LA have paper trails or ballot receipts to verify electronic voting. Electronic voting is available to 2% of voters in the country if every person where it is available used it. I don’t think TX or LA changed the result.
Why do we *assume* there are no checks and balances in place — when we lose an election? No one ever says “My guy or gal got too many votes.” Rudy would go to court with questions & requests. He would literally tell the judge when cornered “We have no evidence of fraud, and we are not suggesting that fraud occurred.”
I think magaworld got what it wanted, they broke election trust. Answers are never enough. MGT did it to GA and Dems won Senate seats when her folks stayed home. More people will stay home because now Dems are saying your vote doesn’t count — with no evidence. There are things we could focus on to win the next election when the orange menace will have a vulnerable Congress. Nope, we’re going to wallow in ‘what if’.
I would like to know what the voters have to say about what they did or didn't do. We need reliable surveys to tell us whether, in fact, 93 million people didn't vote and if so, why. We also need to know from voters how they voted and why. I know this is a daunting and perhaps impossible task, but if we have the information we can tell what really happened.
I agree with you, Dean, that we need fighters. I do not understand why Democrats let Republicans steamroll over them. They are letting down their party and the country by making themselves doormats. Haven't we learned anything from the Al Gore debacle in 2000, which BTW has paved the way for all the misery we've experienced since then? Enough. We need more Bernies.
Oh? Where were you in 2016 when the Bernie Bros sat it out or voted for Jill Stein.....the same Jill Stein who was playing footsie in 2016 and is still playing footsie now. No thank you. Bernie has done enough. Democrats are not making themselves "doormats." That's the MAGA party or have you missed who is being nominated to "run" this country. Once again, the felon did not achieve 50% of the popular vote, once again third party candidates, or the backers of failed third party candidates, either got enough votes to influence the vote in a swing state or sat it out pouting, because it was a woman at the top of the ticket - ah misogyny, the United States' most influential party - and here we are. I don't understand why some people insist that it's always the Democrats who need to reform. Really? The Republican party, which has been slow walking to Fascism for the last, God knows how many years, is the one that needs to reform. Bringing up the Gore debacle is telling - why don't you suggest we "reform" the Supreme Court? That seems to be where more than one of our problems lie. Again, look to the MAGA party for trying to destroy our government. And the Democrats, as usual, having to put out the fire and be the true fighters.
What makes you think Sanders supporters voted for Jill Stein (who is my neighbor, and who is a magical thinker, and who is now at least twice a vanity candidate for president, and whose family is mad at her in a big way for having run again after she threw what should have been Hillary Clinton's victory to Trump)! Because of Stein, Trump put three justices on the Court; we got Dobbs, and thousands, maybe tens of thousands of women are dead or grievously harmed from lack of reproductive care.
I was an avid supporter of Sanders, but once he was out of the running, I worked to convince Democratic voters to vote for Clinton.
I haven't seen Stein since before the election, but I just may blow up at her if/when I do.
I too supported Sanders, but when he lost I supported Clinton. Third-party candidates are spoilers. They can't possibly believe they can win so they have to be running either to throw off the vote or because they harbor delusions of grandeur.
Too bad Kennedy didn't continue his third party presidential campaign. I know he offered to support Biden if he'd get a cabinet post in his next administration. Biden refused, so he joined the Trump campaign.
RFKjr. should not get a cabinet post. He doesn't have the requisite knowledge and he's a conspiracy theorist. His views on vaccines, if taken seriously, will result in a lot of people dying. He'll undoubtedly make a mockery of whatever Trump gives him.
OH, I don't know, maybe having spent a lot of time working with the Clinton campaign and dealing with an awful lot of alleged Democrats who spent an inordinate amount of time sabotaging the party after she was denied the election with the "if only Bernie....." First of all, Bernie is not a Democrat never has been because it he were he would have been primaried in his home state and every time he ran in a primary and against a woman? He lost. So better to be an Independent and avoid that unpleasantness.
As for my comment about the Bros? This is just one of many polls on how they voted and it's from the Guardian. They didn't have a dog in the hunt.
Eighty-five percent of Bernie Sanders supporters said they intended to vote for Hillary Clinton in the general election, according to a survey released last week by Pew Research Center.
Another 9% said they intended to vote for Donald Trump (a trend the Guardian noticed among its readers) and 6% said they either aren’t sure who they will vote for or will choose another candidate in November.
But further questions in the survey suggest that former Sanders supporters are not necessarily happy with the choices they are left with. When asked whether the presumptive Republican nominee or Clinton was the more honest and truthful candidate, only 47% chose Clinton; 16% chose Trump, and 35% said “neither” candidate could be described with those adjectives.
Supporters for Democratic presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt. cheer before a rally in Portsmouth, N.H., Tuesday, July 12, 2016, prior to the arrival of Clinton and Sanders. Sanders is poised to offer his long-awaited endorsement of Clinton, hoping to transfer the energy of his supporters into the party’s fight against Republican Donald Trump. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik)
Bernie Sanders supporters: who will you vote for in November?
Read more
People were even more pessimistic when asked who would reduce the influence of special interests in politics. Of the former Sanders backers whom Pew spoke to, only 46% believed Clinton would reduce these interests, 27% believed Trump would and 23% said neither candidate would make US politics less vulnerable to lobbyists. The results further emphasize how this election has left many voters having to hold their nose between two unpopular options.
It is important to remember that the way this survey was conducted may have influenced these findings. Pew interviewed 2,245 US adults living in all 50 states by telephone from 15 to 26 June. The fact that individuals were asked to state their preferences to a stranger over the phone might have meant that some were reluctant to disclose their intentions openly (in particular, former Sanders supports who plan on switching to Trump).
In '16, the DNC tried to install HRC, but it backfired and put Trump in. A lot of Trump voters would have nothing to do with her, but would have chosen Bernie and we would have never had Trump....
Please watch this short clip.. https://www.facebook.com/michael.gene.miller/videos/10215667629778890
Garbage. Oh, wait .......misogyny! Right. She won the popular vote. A lot of the felon's voters are a product of the Fox entertainment corp. What you're saying is you wouldn't vote for a woman. Sit this year out did you?
Believe as you wish Carol-Ann. Oh, btw, I own a non-gender related small business and over 80% of my employees are women, including the one in charge..
I'm not the enemy, Carol-Ann. I have never voted for Stein and never would. Why are you beating up on me?
Not beating up on you just questioning your defending the indefensible. Perhaps, just perhaps it's time to reassess what a "fighter" is. That's all I'm saying. I am so sick and tired of people accusing Democrats of being wimps. Beating up on you? Let's just say anyone who still backs the man who gave the election to the felon the first time around because he wouldn't rally his own backers is almost as good as voting for Jill Stein. Almost.
If you will remember, Hillary won that election. If it hadn't been for the obscene electoral college she would have been president. I don't see how Bernie had anything to do with that. He is one of the few principled politicians we have. His message has been consistent for decades. He is almost the only one pushing for Medicare for all. He is against sending offensive weapons to Israel. He is staunchly pro-worker. If we didn't have him we'd be in worse trouble, IMO. Obviously I'm not going to convince you of that but I hope we can listen to each other respectfully instead of making accusations. We're on the same side.
I wish I could like your comment at least 50 times! Sanders IS a truly principled politician, with excellent views on how to make this a better country for all of us. I wish he were young enough to run in '28, and a few more times after that if need be. Had he been our candidate in '16, he would have beaten Trump both in the popular vote and in the electoral college. A lot of Trump voters who liked Trump's then weak populism would have voted for Sanders against Trump.
Interesting points. I thought he was too old already in 2016, but given what we've been dealing with, that was obviously an error. I did like Hillary, but if Bernie had been the candidate, I would have voted for him. He has always been rather difficult for me to figure out, and I am not sure how he'd do when tact was needed. I don't really know him, just what I've seen him say to reporters. There's probably more to him than I know. I definitely agree that he has really good ideas, and that he is not afraid to pursue what he believes in.
Thank you, David. I agree with everything you say.
I remember all too well, all too well. There are lots of principalled politicians who actually get things done. Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio comes to mind. You don't need to remind me of the 83 year old's track record, this is just from the presentCongress:
Got bipartisan cosponsors on the 2nd fewest bills compared to All Senators. 1 of Sanders’s 36 bills and resolutions had a cosponsor from a different political party than the party Sanders caucused with in the 117th Congress.
Got their bills out of committee the 4th least often compared to Serving 10+ Years (tied with 3 others) Sanders introduced 4 bills in the 117th Congress that got past committee and to the floor for consideration.
Was 9th most absent in votes compared to All Senators
Sanders missed 9.4% of votes (89 of 949 votes) in the 117th Congress
Ranked the 10th bottom/follower compared to Serving 10+ Years
A higher score shows a greater ability to get cosponsors on bills.
Introduced the 26th fewest bills compared to All Senators (tied with 1 other) Sanders introduced 36 bills and resolutions in the 117th Congress.
Sanders introduced 0 bills that became law, including via incorporation into other measures, in the 117th Congress.
Powerful Cosponsors
2 of Sanders’s bills and resolutions in the 117th Congress had a cosponsor who was a chair or ranking member of a committee that the bill was referred to. Compare to all Serving 10+ Years (8th percentile); All Senators (13th percentile).
If the Senate were a debating society, he'd be a star. It's not. It's supposed to be the engine that makes the country go. But then this Congress was one of the least productive in the history of the country.
If you want corporate Democrats like Schumer and Manchin (gone, but the damage isn't forgotten) to call the shots because they're "effective," then IMO we're all finished. If you want someone who's nationally known and stands up for the little person, you might take another look at Bernie. Just because he hasn't succeeded doesn't mean he hasn't gotten through to people. He's fighting an uphill battle in this country, one that many other countries won long ago. The US is way behind Europe on the social safety net, for example, the reason being none other than the greed and corruption of corporate-backed Democrats and Republicans.
She even won the electoral vote. Trump stole that election with the machines.
We ARE wimps! We are disgusting!
blaming people who supported Bernie and accusing us of voting for Jill Stein is fake news. I heard that old story, back in the day, and it pisses me off as much now as it did back then… It’s untrue. It just goes to show how anyone can be manipulated by the corporate machine.
With all the polling companies out there, you would think that they could accomplish what you are suggesting.
What? Unlike 2016, this time all the polling companies had VP Harris winning and the felon and the anti-Christ Johnson smirking and talking about their "little secret." Maybe every thing wasn't as copacetic as it should have been. "Bullet ballots." Really? And only in swing states? Huh.
Yes! I think the bullet ballots must be examined to see if they were cast by people who won melon tusk’s lotteries, especially in Pennsylvania.
Yes. Read the Substack on the subject by Stephen Spoonamore. Very interesting. Basically what he says is that there are always bullet ballots, but they usually total <1%. I don't remember the percentages in the swing states, but they were way out of line with the usual numbers. The piece i'm talking about may be on Threads, addressed to @billt801
I just pulled this from another site. My question is, why didn't alarm bells start ringing like crazy or did people just believe this was a one off and not have a real impact?
"Trump’s percentage of bullet ballots totaled 7.2%. In Nevada, 5.5%. In comparison, bullet ballots for Trump in Oregon, Utah and Idaho—the three states which border Arizona and Nevada, with equally fervent Trump voters—count for less than 0.05% in each state."
And in North Carolina bullet ballots are rumored to be upwards of 10-11%....and the window to call for an audit or recount in North Carolina is past. This is such a dropping of the ball on an epic level. They need to do something instead of just roll over and give up
It’s meaningless. Quite a few states prioritize getting the presidential vote tallied first so they can meet state, Congressional and Constitutional deadline. Those deadlines don’t apply to lower ballot candidates. All the votes get counted. The “bullet ballots” are neither new nor a huge number in the final counts.
Yes, reporters have gone back and compared prior elections.
You realize Johnson has 0 to do with election results until it comes to the House?
Did you notice the wide margin of error in the polling? You missed polling that fluctuated or didn’t show her winning? Have you researched any of that stuff like Bullet Ballots? Or state processes to verify vote totals & ballots?
Daily Kos, Nov. 17, 2024 - explained how common “bullet ballots” are and why by looking at previous elections.
“… in quite a number of states, the cumulative votes for the Senate (and in a couple of places for Governor) have been running far behind those recorded for President — but this is perfectly natural since there is a constitutional deadline that the Presidential vote must be finalized before the Electoral College meets in December that Senators and Governors don’t have to meet.“
Did answering this question put the matter to rest? Hell, no. A simple answer like some states prioritize certain tallies because of a Constitutional deadline does not change the result.
And so it would be with any hand count or other responses.
The only lead Harris ever had was 3 percent, which is the margin for error. No one should be surprised at the result.
Finding a reputable pollster is hard.
And one that would be trusted by all.
I know, but there have to be some out there.
So you assign an impossible task and say completing that task is how we can tell what really happened? Exit polling is available. It is NOT 100% reliable but probably more reliable than pre-election polling. That’s because you cannot make people tell you who they voted for so you have to take whoever will tell you.
I guess you figure Marc Elias with the army of attorneys the Dems assembled were picking their collective noses instead of doing their jobs. That the Dems and Kamala would sit on it if they knew there was something wrong? A lot of states haven’t finished verifying their vote tallies but of course like the last elections voters for the losing candidate question the results.
I love Bernie but this has 0 to do with Bernie. This has to do with not knowing how the states verify votes and *assuming* the books are cooked. Exactly what magaworld did in 2020 for the same reason: their candidate lost.
Overall I see this as another win for magaworld. Nothing our adversaries would like more than a complete breakdown of trust in the core of our democracy: voting.
Why is everyone beating up on me? I am not assigning anything to anyone. I don't have the power to do that. I am just saying that I have seen nothing that proves to my satisfaction what happened in this election. We worked our asses off for Harris and Walz. I still can't figure out why they lost. Do *you* know? That is all I'm saying. I know everyone is on edge but for heaven's sake, let's at least be cordial to each other.
Uh, responding to what you actually said is not ‘beating up on you.’ For instance this which indicates we don’t know what happened & never will unless an impossible task is completed. - “We need reliable surveys to tell us whether, in fact, 93 million people didn't vote and if so, why. We also need to know from voters how they voted and why. I know this is a daunting and perhaps impossible task, but if we have the information we can tell what really happened.“
It’s one thing to be disappointed. It’s another to not understand why it happened. That goes a step further. Plus, “letting down” the party & country; being “door mats”.
I do have observations about why the campaign narrowly lost. It’s a few things.
• Post-pandemic leaders have been losing elections across the globe. Voters are tired. They don’t feel heard & their wallets are hurting. They want change.
• The Dems are getting better but not breaking the disinformation fog which is aided by Fox, the tweet machine, social media algorithms & the GOP rallies around 1 msg.
• Most Americans read on an elementary school level (54% below 6th grade.)
• Most Americans are not political & know little about how gov’t or tariffs work. They don’t know how elections work or that observers from each party are present etc.
• We have allowed the idea of a king president to take root. No matter what, the president & the administration get the blame. The GOP pounded on her being VP.
• It’s been well know across the country people are concerned about rent, food, gas — getting by day to day. And crime which is generally lower but the fog machine always says the opposite. That means every crime (or high homicide rate like where I live) reinforces the lie that Dems = high crime.
• People who have more stable day-to-day lives are able focus on a bigger picture; college grads don’t read at elementary school levels & seek out info beyond the fog machine. Harris/Walz won college grads & voters with $100K+ incomes.
According to Maslow, most people move up the pyramid 1 level at a time as levels of need are achieved. We need to meet voters where they say they are.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/wp-content/uploads/maslow-needs3.jpg
The orange menace used basic needs & safety and security. He tied his forever bogeyman, immigration, to them. “They” (Dems and immigrants) are criminals. “They” take your tax dollars; “They” cause high prices; “They” make you unsafe.
You may very well be right about voter sentiment, but why did 93 million people not vote? In 2020, more people did. It's possible that people were just cynical and didn't believe either candidate, but we don't know.
I know this, that is not registered voters who didn’t vote. It is some sort of estimate. Eligible voters grow a little each year with the age of the population. US News has a similar report saying almost 90M did not vote. They indicate it is an estimate of all voting eligible adults — NOT registered voters. 90M registered voters would be a horrific anomaly.
64%, 155M did. They have a table comparing it to previous elections. Looks like about a 2% difference.
“This figure is based on the voting-eligible population – not registered voters – in the United States, which the Election Lab defines as “the voting-age population (those 18 years or older in the U.S.) minus ineligible noncitizens and felons.”
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2024-11-15/how-many-people-didnt-vote-in-the-2024-election
Exit polls are "adjusted"! The organizations conducting the polls adjust them by using the vote results. If the final votes are tampered with, the adjusted exit polls become just as unreliable at the final votes. Here's a quote from CNN on exit polls: "Even so, exit polls are still polls, with margins for error – which means they’re most useful when treated as estimates, rather than precise measurements. That’s particularly true for the earliest exit poll numbers, which won’t yet have been adjusted to match the final election results."
interested. I was thinking more accurate in the sense of talking to people who actually voted versus what voters saying what they would do. So to compensate for not getting answers they adjust the numbers to match the result. Very weird. But the purpose isn’t to confirm the results.
At any rate, I don’t think the election was messed with. There’s 0 evidence. People refuse to look up the processes or educate themselves on it.
I think no matter how many answers people get they will not be satisfied because the result will not change. So we will have this now every friggin’ election where whoever doesn’t win says it was rigged. “Just asking questions” which is what conspiracy theorists do to plant doubt.
Xi and Putin are laughing. Their favorite line is that democracies are too messy, inefficient etc. Maga is laughing because now we are saying the stuff they said & they keep denying democracy is a pillar of our system. Mike Johnson described it was 2 wolves & a sheep discussing what’s for dinner “you don’t want that.” He laughed when people were upset about the ‘little secret.’ So I guess he’s happy too.
I’m reposting another comment I made in response to Dean. It explains my skepticism: https://substack.com/profile/26875283-barbara
https://deanobeidallah.substack.com/p/asking-for-a-recount-does-not-make/comment/78733070
My political innocence about elections ended with the 2000 election contest between Bush and Gore. The infamous Brooks Brothers Riot that interfered with the Miami-Dade hand recount should make us skeptical about all presidential elections. This is especially true today when three members of George Bush's 2000 election legal team, Chief Justice John Roberts and Associate Justices Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, are on the Supreme Court. They have aided and abetted Trump's ascension by overturning the Colorado Supreme Court's decision to strike Trump from Colorado's presidential ballot and by conferring immunity on convicted felon Trump. My election skepticism increased with the 2004 contest between Bush and John Kerry. I was canvassing for Kerry in Las Vegas on election night 2004. One of our team members had an insider connection in the DNC who told us Kerry was winning. We were shocked to learn about an hour later that Bush had flipped Ohio. It was the same feeling of shock and disbelief that many of us felt on November 6th this year. Kerry conceded immediately in 2004. But a deposition of Bush's IT expert, Michael Connell, during an investigation several years later revealed that Ohio's vote count was transferred to a partisan Republican server site in Tennessee. The sudden reversal of the vote from Kerry to Bush happened after that transfer. Connell died a month and a half after giving this deposition in a suspicious small plane crash. Stephen Spoonamore, a computer hacking expert, claimed--and provided his expert opinion--that the 2004 election was hacked. He has claimed the same for the 2024 election. The real question is not why voters are skeptical, rather we need to ask why are Democratic candidates NOT skeptical? Why do they refuse to verify election results before it is too late? Here is a link to an article about the 2004 election: https://truthout.org/articles/new-court-filing-reveals-how-the-2004-ohio-presidential-election-was-hacked/
Spoonamore has done a terrific - or maybe we will find it to be “horrific” - job of stirring up doubts. He alleges the potential for election fraud. You’re throwing spaghetti at the wall that conflates election interference.
I’m done looking at what he says or anything based on it. Definitely not going back 20 yrs to his theories. They strangely are always about things that he says ‘could’ happen. Never addresses what did happen & mostly ignores the safeguards in place or how wide a conspiracy would have to be to skirt the processes in place.
At least 2 of his three 2024 allegations don’t pass muster. The 3rd, is just on the face of it very unlikely especially across multiple states. He doesn’t hold enough credibility with me to get a free pass on the 3rd. There are more knowledgeable people who are not jumping on his bandwagon.
I see this as a death spiral for elections; a gift to those who don’t want democracy as a key pillar of our government system. Make it your life’s work. Everyone is entitled.
Actually, Michael Connell testified--before he mysteriously died--that the steal did happen when votes were sent to the Republican server on election night in 2004. The speed and timing--late at night--of the Ohio vote flip from Kerry to Bush was beyond belief. And we know the Republicans on the Supreme Court stopped the electoral vote count in 2000 and made Bush president. The 2000 election Brooks Brothers Riot in Miami Dade helped to stop the recount. Out of town Republican operatives, including Roger Stone, stormed the government building where the recount was being conducted. Vote counts done after Bush was made president showed Al Gore had won. Then there was Trump's conviction of election interference for a porn star payment to try to influence the 2016 election. And the fake electors and Capitol riot in the 2020 election. What about all this tells you we should just trust that Trump did not do anything to steal the 2024 election? What about this History tells you we should just trust the election results and not try to verify results? A hand count and computer audit would go a long way to give voters peace of mind. Unlike Republicans, Democrats would accept the results of a thorough audit and hand count. Yes, we are entitled to free and fair elections AND the right to verify the results.
Polling is not reliable. Exit polls are "adjusted"! The organizations conducting the polls adjust them by using the vote results. If the final votes are tampered with, the adjusted exit polls become just as unreliable at the final votes. Here's a quote from CNN on exit polls: "Even so, exit polls are still polls, with margins for error – which means they’re most useful when treated as estimates, rather than precise measurements. That’s particularly true for the earliest exit poll numbers, which won’t yet have been adjusted to match the final election results."
Democrats have not been real fighters since the days of FDR. Dams always prefer to bring a policy book to a gunfight. They don't want to upset anybody and they don't want to appear overly political. It's about time to shed that mentality. Republicans have taken over the country and are planning to destroy the government. Unless Democrats learn how to fight, we are going to lose this constitutional republic forever. Let's grow a spine and get an attitude. Bipartisanship and collegiality are no longer going to work with those Republican vulgarians. We need to stop allowing Republicans to run roughshod over the law, the Constitution, our institutions, and our nation. Quit playing nice with these Republican jackals, Dems.
Amen!
This 1000%
Yes, yes, and yes…I demand a hand recount of the swing states! 🫶🏻💙
Remind again which U.S. political party is allied with & behaves the same as Putin & Russia?
“Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything.”- Joseph Stalin
https://samray.substack.com/p/the-putin-illusion-a-psychological
I very much agree with the article. If 50 % of the voters have questions; those questions should have answers based on data and facts. If there have been electronic irregularities in the counts, that needs to be looked into to assure new methods of fraud are not being used. If not dealt with, they will just be perfected for future elections.
At about 10;30 on election night, I saidto myself, “Something is wrong.“ I went to bed and woke up in the middle of the night to learn that I was right
Maybe Georgia had the right of it, and we didn't realize it. Hand count. We need to know what was on the original ballot and what came out the other side. There is no need to know who was elected on election night. We need to know that the ballots were factual. I am, in no way, saying it's the fault of the manufacturers of the machines, I am saying, given the news the came out about Russia's interference reported about 2 weeks before the election, we need a hand recount. Funny, no one is saying this was the most secure election in modern times they way they were in the 2000 election. Just an observation.
There are lots of hackers out there who have sophisticated ways of hacking voting machines, although I have been told that because of how our system is set up, that would be very difficult. But then there is also the issue of the huge numbers of bullet ballots that appeared in swing states. That is something that should be looked into, for certain.
We will recall than musk offered a million dollars a day in a voters sweepstakes if they would register using their names and street addresses. Bullet ballots, anyone?
Whoa!!! I didn't think of that. Interesting thought. And that was in Pennsylvania, if I recall correctly.
Exactly.
Maybe 50% or more of Dems have no idea of the processes already in place to catch these things. For sure very very few have looked up state processes or searched for these “theories” being batted around or they’d find they’ve been batted down.
Now I realize no one will accept Dominion as a ‘reliable source’. Unknown random assertions and doubts are more lovable. But it is a place to start to see in general how it states do it and what to search for regarding any specific state.
https://www.dominionvoting.com/setting-the-record-straight/
There is no evidence, so why do we have all these questions? Because our candidate lost. No one anywhere ever said “Our guy / gal got too many votes.” Now that maga & helpers succeeded in sowing distrust in elections, we’ll have this every effing election.
At least 2000 Mules had fake evidence.
It's beyond appalling when billions and billions of dollars have been foolishly spent on fucking nothing ..nothing ..not for food ...not for homeless ...not for kids living in poverty who will be lucky to eat a turkey or even think about buying Christmas anything .. instead we all stand divided between a stolen ..uncounted ..Election and absolutely nothing . Our voices unheard ...our votes obviously not even fairly counted ..
Nice try on getting recounts. Instead, we need to put massive efforts toward getting rid of the Electoral College and then every person's vote WILL stand for something.
There is not a chance in hell we will get rid of the electoral college now. Republicans have taken over the government, and we are not going to get it back. It's too late now. Americans gave our country away to the barbarians.
Republicans would never allow that to happen. If it did, probably they wouldn’t win anymore elections.
We need more Democrats to speak up like this one.
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/sen-murphy-im-preparing-for-dystopia
It wasn't just "economic populism" that got people to vote for Trump. Because just saying he would lower the cost of groceries and rents is not a policy. What got people to vote for Trump is playing up to their prejudices and biases and putting Democrats on the defensive.
I am utterly stunned this is not being screamed from every Democratic representative and constituent! These are computer experts with very compelling arguments and an election result with some extremely specific odd outcomes, as remarked upon in the letter. WTAH!?! Don’t just roll over, VP Harris, you’re made of stronger stuff than that! We the people demand our votes be counted accurately! 🤬🤬🤬
This isn’t about Spoonamore, dear. He wasn’t the only expert on the letter. Computer experts warned the FBI and DOJ in 2020 to beware for 2024, too. What exactly are your computer science qualifications? Shortly before the election Trump himself told his little MAGAts they didn’t have to vote because he was gonna win anyway and oops he wasn’t supposed to say that. Rachel Maddow reported that little tidbit. He tells on himself ALL THE TIME. He certainly has all the money and technology in the world necessary to hack the election, with Russia, North Korea, China, and Israel happy to assist - who’d I miss? There are too many dots connecting for this to all be just a damn coincidence that he won just enough in every swing state to not trigger an automatic recount, even when the margin was so close on the popular vote. Never mind, dear. You do you, and step aside when you roll over and play dead.
These ‘bullet ballots”… what percentage were marked for Harris? Or did that creepy orange guy get ALL those ballots?
I so agree!!!!!
People could look up processes for states that concern them. Instead we’re going to do what magaland did in 2020 & our adversaries are glad of it. Including maga because now there is widespread distrust of the pillar of democracy. They planted it. Dems are feeding it for them. Anti-democracy movement grows. There’s no evidence. Even 2000 Mules had fake evidence.
Not very compelling arguments if you know how votes are verified. Hand counts are done randomly in many states. NC for example - which is a big focus - hand counts random precincts in every county. No one’s mind will be changed until the results change. IOW, never.
Bullet ballots are not a new thing and not weird. There always appear to be a large number until all the votes are counted because quite a few states prioritize the presidential count. That is to be sure they meet the Constitutional deadlines & certification deadlines set by Congress. Not that a simple sane reason seems to change anyone’s mind because the results of the presidential race won’t change.
To believe the rumors & theories you have to also believe Harris doesn’t want to be president. Marc Elias and the rest of the Dem’s army of election attorneys took the election off.
Well, honestly, seems like they did take this election off, from my point of view. I see lots of points in your multiple posts regarding this is what MAGA wanted, Dems to not trust elections. At least the GOP made up stuff in 2020, like the BS 2000 Mules stuff, but I do not see you commenting on the stuff Musk was doing. He was paying people who registered to sign a petition. He was offering 1 million dollars a day to some "lucky" person who registered and signed his petition. And when someone, not Elias, brought charges, in court his team fell back on, well, it was just a scam???? And got away with it. There's your evidence right there. There's your reason to distrust the results, right there. I'm shocked at how little came of all of this. I mean, if that stuff is allowed and we don't see that as cheating to win an election, why don't the Dems have a $5 registration to vote drive every single election? Why doesn't George Soros do a daily $10,000 give away after you register by proving you voted? There's plenty of reasons for there to be recounts in every swing state. The fact the margins of victory were just over the amount needed for official recounts is enough. And after 8 years of constant election denial crap from the GOP and our system placating them to make them feel better, the very least we deserve is the exact same treatment. Not that it matters, i guess, cause those who think we still have an actual democracy are kidding themselves. In an actual democracy, the rule of law matters and is respected by everyone, not just the dems. In an actual democracy, the person who tried to over throw it just under 4 years ago goes to prison, not to mention isn't allowed to run for office again. Evidence? It's all around us. We are floating in evidence. No one has the balls to step up and do something about it. That's why the wife and I are working on our visas. Why fight for more complacency and corruption? Ridiculous.
You are talking about potential election interference, not election fraud. They are 2 different things. It is true I mostly address the fraud fears - mostly the ones brought to us by “scientists” (a tech guy).
Perhaps you didn’t follow the Musk court case closely. Turns out the winner was not a ‘lucky’ person but carefully screened to be a spokesperson. So it was not a direct chance for a million if you register. Therefore, different legal tactic. One thing the GOP & pals do is pull stuff like that close enough to elections that time runs out to push back with court case appeals.
As I remember it was pretty close to the election and we heard no more about winners. Maybe too late for them to be very effective. Your solution is to be like the fascists. That won’t work either. “See they’re all alike.” With a choice between the original and a lite version, voters choose the original.
Regardless PA was important, but 1 of 5-7 swing states. The only state with a giveaway scheme. We lost them all. Most if not all by more than the narrow margins where Biden won. Dems never said in 2020 “Oh, it’s too close” in those states. “Our guy got too many votes.” No one ever does.
So run for cover because there is worse news. By your definition we’ll probably never be a ‘real’ democracy. Eugene V Debs ran from prison. Being conviction-free isn’t in the Constitution. Probably to prevent political prosecutions. The GOP in the Senate failed to impeach by a few votes the 2nd time. Too many voters failed to see the danger ahead.
The Dems have not broken through the disinformation fog. They were close but unable to break from a precedent set in history: If the administration has low approval ratings, they drag down a candidate, especially if the candidate is the VP or seated President. What people saw & lived everyday were confirmed by the orange menace. That’s what they cared about. Dems are still denying it.
Have you read the letter sent by the computer security professionals? Look it up - I would enclose it here if I could. It has very specific details that they’re concerned about. It’s not just screaming “election fraud” in the wind like the MAGAts do. It absolutely is not the same BS. Fear of appearing the same as them when we have concrete evidence is anathema to our cause. Dems need to fight fire with fire instead of rolling over.
A. I’m not open to more “look it up.” I do my research before I have an opinion. These things can multiply faster than rabbits. I’m staying out of rabbit holes. My life & my community have more important things to be done.
B. 2000 Mules had “evidence” “data experts”. It was all based on “data” and it was BS. Some BS is more sophisticated but that doesn’t make it more valuable.
C. I’ve already slogged through some of the junk put out by “experts”. Spoonamore for instance has 3 major points regarding votes. 2 are pure bunk. For instance, the ‘bullet ballot’ thing is baloney. It doesn’t take a “security” or “tech” expert to find the flaws. The 3rd is obscure and relies on assumptions. I know the definition of *assume*. He breezes right past checks & balances; hand counts that states do; their security measures and so on. Not very scientific. Plus if you are wrong 2x, the 3rd is suspect.
If you don’t like 1, 2, or 3, he has some other “look over here” stuff. Standard fair for election denial and misdirection.
In trying to get the spelling of his name correct, I ran across a big Snopes entry. I guess he’s made the big time. Maybe he’ll do fundraising. Notice when faced with the fact (yes, fact) that his numbers don’t work, he said his ‘duty to warn’ was not perfect. But he stands by it. (His credentials also don’t meet the level of his allegations.)
https://www.snopes.com/news/2024/11/21/stephen-spoonamore-letter-harris/
Anybody can be an expert. I’m an expert at putting pieces together to get the big picture & separating online and in person wheat from chaff. It was a big part of my job, education & training. People depended on my accuracy & judgement.
I'm really glad to hear that someone is suggesting hand recounts in swing states. What I would really like to see investigated is the outsize numbers of bullet ballots in states like PA. Information I got from one of the discussions I participate in, was that the number of bullet ballots in those states is very much higher than the normal 1% or less. I couldn't agree more that we need fighters to lead the democratic party. I find myself wondering if the candidates think that fighting is the same as playing dirty like the repubs do. I'm tired of seeing our "leaders" roll over an play dead in the face of the republicans' dirty tricks.
I’m also sick of Dems trying to “take the high road” when Republicans are laying land mines all along it! Dems don’t seem to notice that polite deference is out of style.
That doesn’t mean they need to fabricate lies. There is plenty they could say about the lies Republicans spread, but they do a really poor job of calling out the obvious in a big way.
For instance, they could have clarified that the ACA is Obama Care; that no states allow babies to be killed after they’re born (“after-birth abortion”); that Bidenomics really IS working; that Biden’s infrastructure bill IS creating high-paying jobs and that there is good reason for separation of church and state, as well as for independent news media. They could also have enumerated what and where the infrastructure bill is having effects.
Dems allow themselves to get caught in the weeds. When it comes to LGBTQ+ rights, they got hung up on pronouns and bathrooms instead of pointing out that LGBTQ+ are, in total, only about 7% of the entire adult population and trans adults are only about 1%. So, while they certainly deserve equal rights and protections, they can hardly represent a dominant presence anywhere, except TV. Additionally, violent crime is down under Dems and usually escalates under Republicans. It was up under Trump. And most sexual assaults are committed by heterosexual men, not LGBTQ+ people. Where is the fear and outrage for heterosexual men? Or clergy, for that matter? Likewise, most crimes, violent or not, are committed by Americans, not by immigrants.
Dems could counter Republican lies, but seem to be unaware they need to do so or incapable of doing so effectively. Or maybe they’re afraid it wouldn’t be ‘nice’.
Even Jesus Christ lost his temper with liars and thieves. He called them out again and again, even overturning the tables in the ‘temples’ where religious leaders were selling the privilege to worship. Sound familiar. Elon paying people for their votes with his $1,000 daily lottery! Just to name the obvious.
Spot ON!!! Thank you Carrie D. for your intelligent and insightful response to all of this.
Well said! I think one of the problems might be that the republicans would immediately turn the tables and accuse the dems of something that is not true, but that people would, for some unfathomable reason, listen to and believe. That's how upside down they've turned this country/
Too many people believe the BS they hear on TV.
The election was stolen.
Trump & Musk cheated!
As I revealed in several comments, my wife’s approved mail-in ballot was “Returned Undeliverable,” even though mine arrived at the same address with both names on our mailbox. Difference is that she is female and has a Spanish name. A local Phila. journal published an article listing 4000 names of people denied a vote in Phila, mostly Latino, Muslim, African & female. My wife went to City Hall w/ her documents and voted there, but msny likely did not know what to do or would not miss work to do so. The 174 Page list is at the end of the article, as follows: <https://billypenn.com/2024/10/26/cure-mail-ballot-philadelphia-election/?mc_cid=62d21529b1> Further research may not reveal enough votes lost or switched to GOP based on voter info to change the outcomes, but the public needs to know, either to reassure the integrity of this election or to protect future elections. It seems odd that Harris’ 73 million votes is 8 million fewer than Biden got in 2020, 15 million registered Democrats failed to vote, and that Trump got votes from 48% of Latinos & 45% of women. Just a thought.
I'm sure millions of Democratic voters went missing by way of voter roll purges as Greg Palast documents in his excellent movie, "Vigilantes, Inc.".
We need Democratic leaders who refuse to concede until all ballots have been counted.